I have a lot in common with my guest today, designer Lisa Kahn. She lives and works in Florida, near the town I grew up in, she and I both have kids with intellectual disabilities and We’re in complete alignment in terms of how we think about the connection between our overall well being and the built environment. In other words, how our physical spaces affect our sense of self and happiness. I think you’ll find her approach to be just as helpful and illuminating as I did. You can visit the show notes pages here to see beautiful pictures of Liza's work . Here’s Lisa.
The Style Matters podcast is now Slow Style Home! Click here for the latest episode.
I have a lot in common with my guest today, designer Lisa Kahn. She lives and works in Florida, near the town I grew up in, she and I both have kids with intellectual disabilities and We’re in complete alignment in terms of how we think about the connection between our overall well being and the built environment. In other words, how our physical spaces affect our sense of self and happiness. I think you’ll find her approach to be just as helpful and illuminating as I did. You can visit the show notes pages here to see beautiful pictures of Liza's work . Here’s Lisa.
The Style Matters podcast is now Slow Style Home! Click here for the latest episode.
Hello, this is the Style Matters podcast brought to you by Little Yellow Couch. I'm Zandra, your host, creator of the Slow Style approach to uncovering and implementing your signature style, one that represents who you are and actively helps you become who you want to be. This show isn't about hacking the latest trends or coming up with design rules you aren't allowed to break. Instead, my aim is to talk with the most thoughtful designers about their process of creating beauty, how they make their choices, and what makes a room really work, and about the substantive reasons about why developing one style or aesthetic really matters. If you're ready to make your home a meaningful place to be, you are in the right place. I'm so glad you're here. I have a lot in common with today's guest, designer Lisa Kahn. She lives and works in the town next to the one I grew up in. She has kids with intellectual disabilities, as do I, and we're in complete alignment in terms of how we think about the connection between our overall well-being and the built environment. In other words, how our physical spaces affect our sense of self and happiness. I think you'll find her approach to be just as helpful and illuminating as I do. Here's Lisa. Lisa Kahn, welcome to the Style Matters podcast. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I've been looking forward to this. Oh, good. I think it's going to be a really nice conversation and very meaningful. I'm going to start right away. Just dive right into the depth here. On your homepage, front and center, you say there is a profound connection between the built environment and the human spirit. What do you mean by that? But I'm really curious. When did you first start noticing that, that there was that connection? When did you start to realize that that connection was actually going to become the heart of your work? Do you really focus on the idea of that connection between the human spirit and the built environment? I do indeed. Thank you for asking about that. It's one of my favorite things to talk about actually. Oh, good. My mom is an interior designer. I grew up in the world of interior design. My parents owned a firm. I have always understood that our environments really affect our well-being on every level because I actually lived it every day. It really wasn't until in my late 30s when I had my second child, I have a daughter who is now 23, and she is on the special needs spectrum. There are all kinds of issues that go along with my daughter, Chloe. She is a gift, of course, as all special needs kids are. They really come to show us, I think, so many truths about herself and about the world. They have no filter, and so they just really bring things out in ways that are both marvelous and horrifying at the same time. When Chloe got to be about 10 years old, she started having massive seizures. It was with the onset of puberty, of course. In addition to her learning disabilities and all of the other stuff that was going on with ADHD and autism spectrum, all of a sudden, there came these terrifying seizures and a mood disorder. Our entire family life really degraded. It was a very difficult time for us. She was in the mode of destruction. She would hurt the pets, hurt other people. She was very antagonistic, just wanted to strike out all the time. She has since gotten a diagnosis for ODD, which is oppositional defiant disorder. Now I really understand what that is. I can't even imagine in the throes of it all. Like you said, the onset was at around 10. This probably felt like it was coming out of nowhere. Like you said, it affected your entire family. Keep going. It did. We knew early on that there were some issues, but we didn't know how deeply those issues were embedded in her little body until that age. As we were going through all of that and everyone was feeling desperately unhappy, we were all trying to fix things, figure things, I was also in the process of divorcing her father. There was just a lot. My business was having some real hiccups at that point. I lost my accountant, a couple of jobs quit. There were just things. It felt like a lot. It just felt like a lot. As I was going through all of that, I happened to be working with a really wonderful business coach about then. Her name is Gail Dobie. She really dialed in to where I was. She said, you know, Lisa, I actually don't think that it is the work that is burning you out and making you unhappy. I think it's the way you're working. I think you really need to look at this. I was thinking about that and I was walking one morning really, really early. There's a beautiful lake behind my house and I have a pair of Springer spaniels that I love desperately. We were out walking. As I was just feeling so literally put upon by the universe, just so. Of course, dumped on, yes. I just felt like something's got to give. I don't know what it's going to be. It's either going to be my health, it's going to be my mental state. It's going to be. Sanity, right? Yeah. I think something is going to give. I just want a way out of feeling this way. I just cannot continue. I'm a very naturally optimistic person and this was a very dark time. As I paused, I just happened to glance down the lake and there were trees at the very end. As I looked, all of a sudden the sun, just that little glimmer over the top of the trees, the whole sky is awash in this rosy glow. I just was captivated for a moment. As I looked, this wind, like a little breeze picked up, it came down the lake. I had much longer hair. It lifted the ends of my hair. I literally felt awash in goosebumps. It was just one of those moments and I was like, and I heard the word sanctuary. It was like it was whispered on the wind. It was like God's lips to my ears. That's such an evocative word. I just love it so much because it holds within the promise of reverent, sacred peace. I mean, it just sounds, I was like, yeah, that's what I need. That's what I want. Yes, please that. Your whole life, every aspect of your life needed that. That's it. It was so funny that it arrived in that way. As I finished the dog walk and went back home and made some coffee, I was just thinking, why me? Why this word? Why now? But it seemed very clear. It was what I needed. It was what my family did. I was in the midst of going through some very deep work at our local mental health center with my daughter. We were really trying to sift through her moods, a lot of her behaviors because she was getting kicked out of every school, every program, everything. Heartbreaking. Yes, it was difficult. As I was talking to her counselor, I was telling her about this word sanctuary and she's like, oh my God, please that's it. That's what Chloe needs. She needs a sanctuary. Go make one for her. I was like, oh, that sounds like exactly what she needs. I need to... Immediately my design turns on and I'm like, oh, she needs a space where she can be safe, first of all. She needs plush carpet on the floor. She had been falling down. I had sisal rugs in her room and she had rug burns on her cheeks from falling down and moving around with her head. I thought, wow, I really need to look at the space that Chloe inhabits and turn it into a sanctuary for her, a Chloe sanctuary, like a little cocoon where she can go and be physically safe and she can also be emotionally safe so that she can go in there and she can do the things that help regulate her turbulent moods. If she's feeling mad, I'll put big floor pillows on the floor. She can go punch them and scream into them. If she's feeling over the moon, crazy elated, we'll put a karaoke machine in there. She has a big mirror. She can dance and sing, which she loves to do. I put in a big basket full of art supplies and puzzles and just all the things that Chloe really loves to do, her favorite books. I redid it, stem to stern, the whole room. When we unveiled that to her, she was beside herself with happiness. I never let her have a TV in her room. I put one in there and I just really set it up for success. We added aroma therapy oils, soft lighting, great textiles, things low to the ground so that she couldn't fall. We really thought of everything, light control at the windows so she could sleep longer. What happened on the heels of that and Chloe having access to that space all the time was that all of a sudden the entire family unit calmed down. Everything that was ramped up to this very high level, all of a sudden it was like... Yeah, deep breath, yes. For everybody. I thought, wow, this is so effective that she has this place to go and be. I'm actually feeling a little jealous. I really would like to have a place like that for myself because it's not always easy being her mom and running a business and all the other things that go along with living. You said you had another child too, yeah? I do. I could use one as well. Chloe tends to torture him at times and so nice for him to have a space where he can really retreat and that's his personal zone. My husband, my new husband is a musician and so his studio really struck me as a great place for him to have a sanctuary place. I thought, what will it do to our family dynamic if everyone has access to that place where they can go and calm down? Kind of get back to their center and just really kind of decompress fully. I went about creating that for all of us. Within the macro sanctuary of our whole house, we made these micro sanctuaries that were very focused for each person. I really spent time with each of them making sure that it just had every single possible thing that they could need at that point. We declared the house a sanctuary lab. So you could try anything, get anything, we would just really try things out and be experimental and we learned a lot in those early days. And then you took all of that, all of that very personal lived experience and really arranged your business around that idea of sanctuary, correct? I did because as I went back and met with my business coach again and told her about all of this, she's like, this is fantastic. This is it. This is definitely, this is your work. And as she paged through my portfolio with me, I was like, she's right. I'm already creating these spaces that are transcendent, peaceful, really nurturing to the occupants, very intentional with all of the choices and highly personalized. And she said, you know, Lise, you really need to live this if you're going to sell it. You need to live it every single day. And that was a beautiful and breathtaking challenge, I will tell you, to really live what you want your brand to be. I think it's easy in the world today to talk a lot. You know, I heard somebody say the other day, oh, you know, well, wellness is the new buzzword. And I just felt like, you know, I really don't like to hear that because to me, it is not a buzzword. To me, this is a life philosophy. This is a path for well-being on every level. And it isn't just for me, it's really for everybody. And I think it is a natural outgrowth. I think of living through a pandemic and designing through it for wellness to be on everyone's tongue. And I'm glad that it is. Right. I do think that when you are in the business of providing a platform for other people's well-being, you need to be well yourself. You need to be operating from just a really stable platform. And so I went about doing that and we brought Sanctuary to our office. We brought it to our team. And I continue to try new things, you know, bring new ideas. I continue to just really share all of that with everyone. And our world is constantly in the most beautiful kind of flux because it's always improving. I love that. I love that. And I want to just keep talking about this philosophy and dive even deeper into it because a lot of people would think of Sanctuary as a place for kind of rest, maybe meditation, relaxation of course. But all of the things that tend to sound a bit passive, but you also include things like curiosity into your definition of Sanctuary, which to me is much more active. So yeah, let's talk a little bit about how a Sanctuary needs to not just be a place of rest but also a place of, I don't know, moving oneself forward, like, you know, actively moving toward happier times or improve, you know, self-improvement or whatever it is that you're trying to get out of life and your home. You know, I love that. So one of the things that I have been thinking about is why do people come to Sanctuary? They come because something's wrong, generally speaking. Like if that's appealing to you, something has happened. Maybe there's a loss, maybe there's a health diagnosis, maybe you're struggling with an issue, maybe your business is tanking. Like something is going on. You're at a time of transformation. But I feel like, you know, if you imagine, do you remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs? I do. Me too. So I think that Maslow's hierarchy was awesome for when he wrote it. But I think that today we have a new hierarchy, and I've been thinking about this. So if you think of the Sanctuary hierarchy of needs, right, you've got your pyramid and you've got your levels. The bottom one is kind of hiding and healing, right? You come to Sanctuary in because things are not good. Yes, yes. Wait, wait, wait, one second, one second. Before you go on, just in case people have forgotten their, you know, college 101 courses. So Maslow's hierarchy of needs was, you know, it's like a pyramid and at the bottom is that, you know, the basic needs that you all, that we all have food, shelter, you know, safety. And then it goes up to the top of the pyramid where the, you know, you've reached sort of the apex when the need that you are taking care of is, I don't know, remember what he called it. Was it happiness or? He called it self-actualization. Self-actualization. Thank you. So much, much better than happiness. Self-actualization. So now go ahead. Before let's remember that as you're explaining how you're re-imagining this hierarchy of needs. It kind of ties into your question about when does Sanctuary become active, right? So you've got that base where it is really kind of, I don't feel good. I want to feel better. Whatever that might, whatever that cause might be. So you come in there and you spend, you create this space for yourself, whether it's a corner of your living room, whether you refurbish your guest room, it's out in your backyard. It actually doesn't matter where it is. Sanctuary can be anywhere. So you've got this space now that you have access to and you spend time there regularly and you are doing things in that space, through that space that fill your vessel. You are nurturing your own soul during that time. And so what happens very naturally is we start to feel better, right? Very naturally after a period of time, the healing begins and we're feeling better. And I feel like what happens next is this, it's like a personal activation. And because we're feeling better, we tend to want to do a little bit more, right? And this is where creativity comes in. And you know, I think creativity gets a bit of a bad rap. I think people think it's only painting, singing, you know what I mean? Like the fine arts, yeah. Yeah. And yeah, categories that is fine arts. But the truth is cooking is creative. Gardening is creative. Even reading can be creative. Writing in your journal is creative. Like there are so many things that we can do. The list goes on and on. So in that second zone up, now we are doing some of these creative things and this is where it gets active because we're feeling better, right? And so now we're really doing things every day that this is where the rituals come in. Like what do we do in the morning when we get up? What's our routine? Do we spend a little time in our sanctuary? Do we meditate? Do yoga? Do we read something that turns our brain on? You know, do we light a candle and snuggle with our dog with our coffee? You know, what is it that we do that kind of gets us going? Yeah. So that's really in my mind where it gets active, which I love. Before we continue with the conversation, I want to introduce you to my slow style approach to creating a home you love. Slow style is a step by step framework that puts you at the front and center of your home rather than products, trends, and other people's ideas of what beauty looks like. To get started, I've created a new worksheet called dream home action plan, and it's all about adjusting your mindset about what you really want from your home and what you want to experience inside it. Because I believe everyone deserves to live inside beauty right now, not someday when you can afford all the bells and whistles that you see on Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. I'm dating myself. Does anyone remember that show? Anyway, this worksheet is the first step to reframing what you want to get out of life and how your home can help you achieve that. It's free and it's available on our website, littleyellowcouch.com. Just click on the yellow button right at the top called free guide, and then I'll jump in your inbox and we can start a conversation about your dream home. Again, that's littleyellowcouch.com. Okay, let's get back to the episode. And then what happens after that? So I would love to tell you because this is a good one. The third tier then is where this is what I call like the noticing. So all of a sudden now you're out in the world and you are shining with this light that's in you. It automatically turned on. You are nurturing yourself. You are feeling better. You are experiencing well-being. All the kinds, right? The physical kind, the psychological kind, the spiritual kind, the emotional kind. Like you're just in a good space. And so what happens is that light inside you is on now and you are out in the world and you are just broadcasting this beautiful light. And you start noticing how much you feel better. You feel grateful and plugged in. And that's a beautiful space to be that beautiful third level right there. And because you now feel better and you're shining that light, this is where we really notice and engage with our community because we want to give back. We want other people to be happy too. We want our family to be happy. We want our neighbors to have enough food. We want our community to be stable and inclusive and all the different things that we want our community to be. So that is that fourth level where we really now are engaged. So what started out as a place to hide and heal has now supported us all the way back up through. So we are reconnecting with our community, which brings us to the very top of the pyramid, which I think, you know, Abraham Maslow thought that the top of the pyramid was self-actualization. It's about you as a person. I think our actualization in the sanctuary pyramid happens around the middle. And then as we get to the community and then that larger top peak to me is the cosmos. Because this is where all of a sudden we look around and we realize that we are basically woven into the tapestry of the very cosmos. We are one with everything. Everything is connected and we can really see that. And to me, if you were going to reach what Carl Jung called individualization or as Maslow said, self-actualization, that is when you can really see how everything is connected because it's so much bigger than us. We are but a thread in that tapestry. But such a beautiful thing to realize because it's very relaxing to my mind to think, okay, I'm part of something that is so huge. Because you don't feel stuck in this little silo where you're just worried. Yeah, you don't feel alone. You feel like you're part of something. And I think that feeling of connection to other humans, whether it's one other person or if you're more extroverted and it's an entire community, just that connection, I think, is so fulfilling. It is. And helps us grow and helps us stay curious and interested in life and all of those things. And I just want to point out to everyone who's listening, yes, you are listening to an interior design podcast. This is the kind of stuff that your space can do for you. And that's why we talk about these things. We don't talk about curtains. And I'm not going to ever give you a recommendation on what the best paint color is because I have no idea what the lighting is like in your home. So talking about this stuff, the substance behind the style is why I love doing this show, but it's why I love having guests like Lisa on. Thank you. To really, to really remind us of how much of an effect our environments have on us, which is kind of coming full circle to the first question that I asked you. But let's do dig in a little bit into the materiality of Sanctuary. And I know, of course, Sanctuary is going to look different for everybody because it's very personal. And as an interior designer, I know with your own clients, you really uncover the specifics of what Sanctuary means to them and then design accordingly. But generally speaking, are there certain features or shapes or tactile experiences that well, actually you call it, you're looking for these tuning forks, right? When you're working with somebody like what's the tuning fork? Where am I going to hit it when I've got the right experience, the right sensory experience, the right tactile experience, certainly the right colors, all of those elements for a particular client. What are they often? Can you give us some a good starting place that tend to be universal? Yeah, go ahead. Absolutely. I think one of the most basic tenants of Sanctuary is the natural world. And the reason is because there is no more healing force in the world than being outside, right? Mother Nature, just that grounding effect that happens to all of us when we go outside. So I think any time that we can take a space and connect it to what is outside the walls, outside the windows, we're already succeeding. So we don't just want to bring the outside in. That's a cute phrase, and I do like it. I think what we want to do is we actually want to blur the line between inside and outside. And it's kind of interesting to me that whole concept, because the outer sanctuary is actually meant to nurture the inner sanctuary. So again, there is the blurring of that line. But let's go back to the space. So we want to blur the line. So when I work on a new creation of sanctuary for a client, I go into the space and I look at what is out there, because that is what I want to grab colors, textures, objects, references to. I want to get as much of that in here as I possibly can. And sometimes we will literally match paint colors to things that are exactly outside the window, because I want that connection. I want that blurred line. But it also comes down to, if you think of the elements, right? So if you think of it, the earth, we want wood. We love trees. We want that kind of stuff in our space. And we want it to be natural, and we want it to be organic. We need beautiful, fresh air. In an ideal world, your sanctuary would have windows that open so that when it's temperate outside, you have the freshness of that air inside and that your interior air quality is really good. Right? Fire, candles. Is there anything that turns a space into a sanctuary or activates a sanctuary mindset quicker than candles? I think it's one of the easiest tools. It's also like music, right? You turn music on and instantly it changes the mood of the space. It can make something just calm way down and just be so relaxing, or you can pick it back up and have a dance party. And those are all things we do in our sanctuary, at my house at least. But so you just kind of think through all of those elements and water. I find that that's why a lot of people do love sanctuary in their bathroom, in their bathtubs, because water is so soothing to us. It's nice if you have a view of the water. If you don't, you can have a little tabletop fountain, something like that. It's addressing those elemental things because we need them. We want them. They make us feel good and they support us in that just feeling goodness that we're after with all of this. It's interesting to me some of the advancements in neuroscience and also quantum physics and things that are going on in the world. So exciting. They're actually recognizing now with scientific proof that these things that we already knew were true are true, measurable. I agree. We're definitely hearing that a lot, that whole connection between nature and serotonin levels and the brain and all that kind of stuff. Exactly. They can recognize beauty and they can see what happens and that it matters. Beauty matters. And I don't know. You can see why it's one of my favorite subjects to talk about. Absolutely. Well, let's wrap up with that question. Why does style matter? Tell us more. You know, really, I read a quote the other day. I was trying to think of it to share with you and I'm going to have to paraphrase because I couldn't refine it. But it was a doctor and he said that he feels that interior designers in his experience can have more direct effect on people's overall health and ongoing well-being than doctors and hospitals. Wow. Wow. I know. And you know, I think he's really onto something there because we have a knowledge base. We have this deeper access to learning in the word, to biophilia, to products that do the kind of things that we've talked about today. And for each one of us, sanctuary is different. You know, we're all very different, although there are lots of things in us that are the same. It can look very different, I think is my point. And so I think that for us to recognize the opportunity that we have in our own lives to create more happiness, more balance, more equilibrium, more resilience, more joy. I mean, who doesn't want more joy? Right, right. Everyone's raising their hand. Of course. Yes, exactly. And who would love to see there be a little bit more peace and kindness and gentleness in the world? I mean, as we continue to watch, you know, things rage outside of our doors on TV, on social media, you know, sometimes even just driving down the road or in the grocery store. It's a little crazy out there. It is. So being able to harness that beautiful intersection back to your first point of the built environment and the human spirit and being able to be at that gorgeous joining point, that transcendent point and really take advantage of the opportunity that we have to feel better and then to take that feeling better out in the world to help our clients feel better. If you could just imagine for one moment that everyone in the world, and I know this a little unrealistic, but everyone in the world had access to a space of sanctuary where they could go plug in their own battery, right? It's kind of like your battery pack. Recharge, decompress, relax, unplug, do all the things that you need to do to fill your vessel back up. I do not imagine that the world would be in the state that it is today. It's funny how we think of, well, the reality is, is that having sanctuary is thought of as being something for the privileged. You have time for it. You have money for it. You even have the sort of brain capacity to even imagine it and to want to create it or whatever. And yet, and I say this all the time, it's very similar to what you're saying. I believe everyone deserves to live inside beauty. Beauty is, I mean, yes, you need food and shelter. And I know that if you're in a war torn village in Ukraine right now, beauty is probably not the first thing on your mind. But over time, if you don't have access to beauty and you don't believe you can create beauty, you are, you're not going to be, your vessel will not be filled up, as you're saying. And then you can't kind of move forward. And I just love how you talk about, you know, taking the rejuvenation that you get from a sanctuary and then allowing that to take that and go out into the world and give it to somebody else. I mean, it's very beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we actually can't help it either. You know, I think when we feel better, it's hard not to spread happiness. When you're happy, you smile at people. You might pay for the person Starbucks behind you. You know, you just, you want to do nice things in the world because you feel happy and you feel abundant in that happiness. And it's very tempting to want to share at that point. But this is such a, I think people are going to leave this conversation feeling so uplifted. And I just really am so grateful for you bringing your energy to this conversation. And you know, you're, you're a very inspirational person, but also just a lovely person that I've had so much fun talking to you. But I would be remiss if I didn't ask you one more question that popped into my head. And so this is more of a technical question. And I usually like to end on more of a sort of like a big picture idea, but let's, let's just get technical for a second. You talked about using nature as a starting point for inspiration in terms of figuring out what materials you're going to use, maybe your color palette, perhaps your, you know, your, the textiles and all that kind of stuff. What are things that you would say take away from our experience of sanctuary that we tend to have in our homes or we tend to go out and buy and then go, oh, it doesn't feel right. It feels off or whatever. In other words, what are some things maybe we should avoid bringing into our homes or into our spaces? Well, I think honestly, there are several things. It's things that jar us. You know, we take our environments in through our senses. So we want to please our senses. We want to be pleased by what we're looking at. We don't want to look at something that's ugly. You're right. You're right. Beauty is hugely important. We also don't want to hear large, loud, jarring noises. We don't want to hear like the whine of appliances and things that need to be fixed and they're not working. You know, I have a dishwasher right now that is making a really weird noise and it drives me bonkers when I try to write in the morning because it's really it's out of sync with everything that's happening there. Yeah. But I also think, you know, really things that are very unpleasant in odors, like those really strong candles, things that smell like, you know, chocolate chip cookie pies and all that kind of stuff. Right. That's really not relaxing. So and sometimes those scents and the plugins and things are very toxic to our bodies and to our olfactory system. So I think those are not great things to have. I think uncomfortable furniture where you're trying to sit and relax. It just reminds you. It's like wearing a pair of pants that's too tight all day long. Oh yeah. You can't wait to unbutton them. Right. Exactly. You're fat. Right. You don't want that all the time. My pants should not be talking to me. So I think we don't want, you know, pieces of furniture that are just reminding us that we're uncomfortable. I think we want things around us that feel good against our skin. You know, we're going back to that sense of pleasing all the different senses that we have. And so I think anything that is not pleasing, I think we shouldn't bring it into our home. And I think that can be very individual. Yes. Right. Right. But taking the time to really ask ourselves, does this feel right? Does it feel good? Is it, you know, or is it just sort of I'm buying it because it's inexpensive and oh, I'll just deal with it. I'll just, I'll just live with this slightly uncomfortable. Or you know, I'll live with the, I don't know, the sheets that are not all natural because they're just cheaper and you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Exactly. Well, like I said, I'm kind of sorry to bring us back to this more of a technical question to end this conversation, but I just had to ask you to kind of round out that picture for us between what to bring in and what to maybe let go of. And thank you again, Lisa, for this this really wonderful time with you. Oh, I'm so grateful. Thank you for letting me talk about my favorite subject honors. Thanks so much for spending time with me today. If you've gotten something out of this episode, please be so kind as to leave a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you're listening from. It really does help this show stay on the air. And also don't forget to grab our free guide, the dream home action plan at little yellow couch dot com. And also that's where you can find the show notes pages for all of these episodes with photos and links to things that we've been talking about. Have a great week. Bye for now.