My guest today is Jane Pollak, who walks the line between artist and artisan. You know I love to get the story behind pieces of art to help us all understand and appreciate their value. And Jane tells great stories! She’s taken a centuries old craft called Penny Rug Pillows and reimagines them with new colors, patterns, and motifs. In this conversation, we talk a lot about what it’s like to keep reimagining ourselves as well. We’ll have lots of photos of her pillows on the show note page of this episode so you can see for yourself the beauty of what she creates. Here’s Jane.
The Style Matters podcast is now Slow Style Home! Click here for the latest episode.
My guest today is Jane Pollak, who walks the line between artist and artisan. You know I love to get the story behind pieces of art to help us all understand and appreciate their value. And Jane tells great stories! She’s taken a centuries old craft called Penny Rug Pillows and reimagines them with new colors, patterns, and motifs. In this conversation, we talk a lot about what it’s like to keep reimagining ourselves as well. We’ll have lots of photos of her pillows on the show note page of this episode so you can see for yourself the beauty of what she creates. Here’s Jane.
The Style Matters podcast is now Slow Style Home! Click here for the latest episode.
Hello, this is the Style Matters podcast brought to you by Little Yellow Couch. I'm Zandra, your host, creator of the Slow Style approach to uncovering and implementing your signature style, one that represents who you are and actively helps you become who you want to be. This show isn't about hacking the latest trends or coming up with design rules you aren't allowed to break. Instead, my aim is to talk with the most thoughtful designers about their process of creating beauty, how they make their choices, and what makes a room really work, and about the substantive reasons about why developing one style or aesthetic really matters. If you're ready to make your home a meaningful place to be, you are in the right place. I'm so glad you're here. My guest today is Jane Pollock, who walks the line between artist and artisan. You know I love to get the story behind pieces of art to help us all understand and appreciate its value. And Jane tells great stories. She's taken a centuries-old craft called Penny Rug Pillows and reimagined them with new colors, patterns, and motifs. In this conversation, we talk a lot about what it's like to keep reimagining ourselves as well. We'll have lots of photos of her pillows on the show notes page of this episode so you can see for yourself the beauty of what she creates. She's just a really interesting, fascinating person all the way around. I think you're going to love it. Here's Jane. Jane Pollock, welcome to the Style Matters podcast. You and I have met in person, actually, but it's nice to talk to you in this forum as well. Thank you. Yes. So let's dive in with... So what I really want to start with is for you to describe what it is you do, what it looks like, your artistic endeavors, so that we can get a picture in our mind as we're listening to the rest of this conversation. That's great. So what I do, the actual name that I learned, I took a class called Penny Rug Pillows. I took it the weekend before the pandemic, which is really critical to my story because everything shut down right after that and I just started sewing. I had no materials at home. I only had what I got from the classroom. The teacher had provided stuff and I purchased some. So anyhow, they are rows of circles and they're usually three deep and they were done in traditional, I guess colonial... I guess that's not a word we use anymore, colonial times. When we were home and they used whatever they had on hand, almost like patchwork quilts, but they were trivets and pillows and decorative items of table runners, that kind of thing, made of felted wool and very, very traditional, one on top of another and then on a base cloth. So that's the basis of it. And like the other art form I did, which I'm sure we'll talk about, I took it in my own direction. Yes. Always done on a black background. It's very much traditional and I got rid of that pretty quickly. So right. Right. Well, my mother-in-law had a home from the late 1700s and she restored it beautifully and collected colonial furniture, but also what do you call the art that's primitive, primitive works and also some of these penny pillows. Yeah. So I'm familiar with the look. But yeah, so if you could just briefly also tell us about your background, because it's not like this is the first thing you've done as an artist. No, I had actually not touched materials in almost 20 years. I mean, it's all I started in 1973 with another kind of archaic craft called Ukrainian Easter eggs, Pisanky, which because of the war, people have become a little more familiar with and because of Instagram. And I learned that as a high school art teacher taught my students and then went off as an artist to do those. But I found myself always educating people about what they were because it's like, no, they're not the Fabergé eggs and they're not the ones with cutouts. So I did that for 30 years and I had a very successful career doing it. I was on the Today Show. I was on HGTV. I was in catalog covers. I mean, it was really wonderful. You were in the Smithsonian and you mean people like Steve Jobs ordered them. I mean, exactly, very prized artworks. Exactly, exactly. And my I became a professional speaker for a while. And my my keynote was if I can make a business out of this, you can make a business out of anything. And so I believe whatever I choose to do, I'm going to I'm going to work it. And so when I so I didn't do so, then I stopped doing my art in the early 2000s. I'd had it and I had signs from the universe. I my eggs were in a catalog and they were overpriced and they weren't selling. So that was very disappointing. The finishes on the eggs, whatever whatever I was using, the epoxy was crinkling and I didn't care. I was just like, I don't want to you know, and that's a sign that sure is I just wasn't interested in calling the epoxy company. But the ultimate was that I was supposed to be on Martha Stewart the week she went to jail. Oh, this is such a good story. It's like, OK, universe. And so I stopped and I was coaching women entrepreneurs, which I continue to do. And I just let go of all the art. I moved all of my equipment. You know, I sold a lot of it. Yeah. What a final studio sale. I had an organizer come and she said, we're taking all your art books and we're putting them over there. I said, what about the empty shelves? She said they will fill up with business books and they did. And so I've been coaching for 20 years and not doing anything creatively. And the weekend before the pandemic, one of my clients taught was teaching the class at the Guilford Art Center. And I asked two other friends who, you know, knew her. And so let's take Liz's class. It was just for fun. Just on a lark. Totally. Well, things were beginning to like, I wonder if it's going to happen. Is our things going to shut down? And we were, you know, she seated us far apart. She had handmade sanitizer, you know, hand sanitizer. We didn't hug each other. But you know, and on Sunday, it was like it's shutting down. Everything is shutting down. So it was just the right time. And one of the other women is continuing to make the Penny rugs. Also, and the other woman didn't, you know, so of the three of us who took the class. So it's just really interesting. You know, it just kind of came up. And I truthfully don't know what I would be doing if that hadn't happened because everybody was playing show and tell on Zoom. Everybody learned Zoom, you know, within days. And so family and friends said, what are you doing? And I'd hold something up. They said, those are beautiful. You could sell those. And I was like, I've done that. I'm not doing that. Six months later, I had an Etsy site. What can I say? You know, because we were still shut down. Yes. You know, and I was having- And you probably couldn't help but make things. I mean, I think that that's the thing about artistic endeavors is that they come from somewhere so deep in you that you have to put them out into the world, whether or not you're even going to sell them, right? You just have to make things. I wrote, I wrote a blog. I was blogging regularly now. I do a newsletter, but I said, all I want to do is sew. It was so enjoyable to me. The colors, the textures, the materials were new to me. I was used to working on eggs with dye and wax, which I loved. And I loved the scent of it, the whole thing. This is also a very sensual experience. And what happened was, you know, some of the miracles were, you know, I have a box of buttons I don't use anymore. How about, you know, how about this? And one woman said, oh, I know a woman in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania who has the biggest collection of felted wool. And I said, sounds like a field trip, you know? And we drove out to Wilkes-Barre and I met these great women. I didn't even know the woman who introduced, you know, who said that. And we became friends and, you know, she's a maker. And the whole thing was just incredible. I came home with like 30 pounds of gorgeous felted wool and muted, beautiful colors. So those kinds of things keep happening. I love this story of a life that keeps shifting and evolving and moving. And it's not, you know, it's not, you know, I'm 24 and this is my job and then the end, right? It's, there's so much to this story that is this evolution. I'm repeating myself now, but, you know, I'm 52 and, you know, I think, I think you start thinking about what's next and where is my life going? And I love that you knew your passion for the eggs had gone and you let it go. You didn't force yourself to keep doing it. Right. I wrote a book in the early 2000s called Soul Proprietor, S-O-U-L Proprietor, 101 Lessons from a Lifestyle Entrepreneur. I love my life. My lifestyle is hanging out with other creative people, I mean, working, but also going to museums, being surrounded by creative minds. And that you can't measure that in terms of dollars. So it's really, it's really a joyful existence. And I think lifestyle is so incredibly important. Yes, it is. And of course, that's what I spend my time thinking about is the convergence of style, our outward presence with, with the life we want to be living. So and that's why I knew we'd have a great conversation. Exactly. And there's lifestyle, style is right in there with lifestyle. So well, and let's kind of talk about that because you blur the boundary, I think, between a purely artistic piece and a useful one. You know, there's, you've got the pillows and sometimes you do runners and I know you also do art pieces, but you do these, what I would consider to be utilitarian because they're pillows, but at the same time, they're works of art. So is there something about creating objects for the home in particular that's meaningful to you? It, it happened because they were called Penny Run Pillows and that's how I started. And I have the audacity to compare myself to Louis, Louis B. Tiffany, you know, who did these, you know, leaded glass lamps that were, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars. I want these to be objects that people walk into a house and oh, you have two Jane Pollocks, you know, that they're not really necessarily meant to be used. They're really meant to fill out a room. I start when I, you know, became more and more interested in producing them. I started studying interior designers because I realized that was the market I wanted to reach. And there's a beautiful book by Bunny Williams and in it, there's a, you know, in one of her amazing interiors, there's a grand staircase that curves and then there's a set T at the base of the staircase and it has two pillows on it. It's like, that's where my pillows go. You know, it's not in the living room or the den where people put it behind their heads. It's like when you walk in, it has impact and it adds to the design and to the texture of the room. And, and that's where I see myself. So and also once you price something, you know, over five or a hundred or a thousand dollars for a pillow, people take notice that you're not going to find them in pottery barn and they're one of a kind and they're a limited number. I'm going to make, you know, I'm 74. This is, you know, I might make a few hundred, maybe a thousand in the next 10 years, but they're going to be, they're collectible and they're unique. So what do you, let's get more specific. What do you envision the impact is? What, what feelings, what experiences are your pillows evoking? You know, on my, on my homepage, you know, or on the story, it's like I needed beauty and comfort and, and order in my life and I create it. And so that's what I want to convey, you know, to walk, you know, to see one of my pieces, I, oh, you know, that makes me feel so good to see beauty like that. And you know, for me to make it is enjoyable. I think, you know, I think any artist conveys what they do in the finished piece. So you feel, you know, the, the sense of my joy is extended into every stitch. You know, it's like every, every brushstroke, you know, you feel the artist and I want to convey that. So, you know, it's not something you're going to toss, you know, into the family room. It's really something to be coveted and cherished and, and placed with high honor. And they can be used. I, you know, made them for all my kids and my son has two little, you know, little boys. Right. And, you know, two years later, they're doing fine. I don't recommend it, but it's, you know, they're really, they're quite good. So well, and I think that, you know, living with beautiful objects that are exquisitely made and, and that you've invested money in, I do think that there is, that's still appropriate to use them. Just like we use these gorgeous rugs that the hand and rugs that we walk on and they last for hundreds of years because they're so well made. They add so much gravitas to a room and, and yet we walk on them. And I, I, if I had your pillows, I would definitely be using them. It's just that they would be, they would be certainly alone on a couch. Right. It would, you know, I wouldn't combine them with other things because they are this statement when you walk in and you said that you also crave order. And so you create that for your life. Is there order to your artwork? You have a one piece that you did recently called something about Kandinsky. It was, you had been inspired by Kandinsky and it there's, you know, the pattern is all over the place. It's not ordered. Right, right. Yeah. I, I'm more secure with order, but I like, I like playing around with, with them. The other, the other artists I like to liken myself to is Joseph Albers, you know, who did homage to a square. Cause people, some, you know, somebody said to me, aren't you tired of the circles? It's like, I could do circles for the rest of my life. You know, it's the, you know, are they concentric? Or are they not like, and I have the Kandinsky hanging up right here. And what's that condensed? My, my version of it, you know, they're not concentric. So I, there's a lot of play in limiting your materials. And so, you know, I am mixing it up, but I feel very secure. I love repetition. I love that order. The Ukrainian Easter eggs were very repetitious and, you know, meditative. And I think the pillows are too. There's the, the color, you know, there's some surprises that, you know, the colors I juxtapose. I just went to the Hopper exhibit and I, you know, extract the colors and it's just like, you know, there's the woman's accorded the flesh tone. And sometimes it's against a dark Brown and sometimes it's against an Aqua, a light Aqua. And it's like, Ooh, if that's the same color, look how different it looks. So there's, you know, the, the observer doesn't have to know what it is, but they know that they're intrigued. They know that their eye is going there for whatever reason. And I'm more into the science of it. Like, look at how that Aqua looks against this color versus against that color. Right. It changes everything. It does. It does. And then what thread I choose. So there's, you know, there are, or the button or the bead, you know, so to me, they're, they're living art, you know, in my selections. Well, I think you said something really key there, which is that the person looking at it doesn't need to know everything that's going on in your head is, but if they're feeling something, if they're, if their eye is delighted by what they see, they don't need to be able to articulate it, but you want them to feel something. Exactly. Exactly. And so it's the impact of, whoa, wow. You know, there's just something about this that, you know, and, and I hope it part of that is that a human being made this, that every stitch on there was sewn by a person. Before we continue with the conversation, I want to introduce you to my slow style approach to creating a home you love. Slow style is a step by step framework that puts you at the front and center of your home, rather than products, trends, and other people's ideas of what beauty looks like. To get started, I've created a new worksheet called dream home action plan, and it's all about adjusting your mindset about what you really want from your home and what you want to experience inside it. Because I believe everyone deserves to live inside beauty right now, not someday when you can afford all the bells and whistles that you see on lifestyles of the rich and famous. I'm dating myself. Does anyone remember that show? Anyway, this worksheet is the first step to reframing what you want to get out of life and how your home can help you achieve that. It's free and it's available on our website, littleyellowcouch.com. Just click on the yellow button right at the top called free guide, and then I'll jump in your inbox and we can start a conversation about your dream home. Again, that's littleyellowcouch.com. Okay, let's get back to the episode. Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the value of the handmade for sure. We're just inundated with cheaply made things or even just things that are, they're not poorly made, but they're mass produced. So tell us, what do you tell people when you say, oh my gosh, but look at the value of this thing that's one of a kind that is made by hand and you can see the hand in the thing. Tell us about your thinking. Well, first of all, I never defend or explain that. If they don't get it, they're not my audience. It's funny when I talked about the Bunny Williams thing, talking about a sideline here, one of her customers, and she has the wealthiest people in the world seeking her out. And they said, we want the blue that's in the 19 something version of Pride and Prejudice living room. Oh, I love it. You know, it's like that's, you know, I love that. I love that. And, you know, they just responded to that. So my thing is really attention to detail, not that every stitch is just perfect, but that I put, I care so much about, you know, every element of the design, the thickness of the wool. And, you know, I reject a lot of things. And so you're seeing all, you don't know that I've all that has gone into it, but I'm doing all that. So you know, where I thought, where, where did this start? Where did I, I mean, I, I think I used to say, you know, it doesn't matter. And I remember going to a therapist in my twenties and she said, you know, and she quoted a psychologist, I don't remember who it was, but she said, when you say it doesn't matter, what you're saying is I don't matter. And I was like, whoa. Yeah, we need to get rid of that vocabulary. Exactly. I do matter. And my attention to detail shows that not only do I matter, but I care about what this looks like to the stitch. I also remember meeting a gentleman who was a contractor or carpenter and he said they have an expression, you know, I can't see it from my house. Have you ever heard that? Like, you know, the, you know, if the socket isn't perfectly aligned and goes, well, I can see it from my house as a way of, you know, like it's not that bad and you're going to have to live with it. You know, like, you know, it's the opposite. Yeah. And it's like, I can see it from, you know, I can see that from a great distance. And so I don't, I want to be the person and I'm not, there's a fine line between, uh, attention to detail and perfectionism. And I was just going to ask you, yeah, what's the difference for you? Yeah. I think the point at which I say, um, that this is too, too anal retentive for me, you know, it's like that, you know, it doesn't make sense to do that. And, um, I remember I was doing a Mondrian inspired thing from the Broadway boogie woogie and I had a row of beads and it just wasn't working or one of them fell off. And it's like, you know what? I just took the whole thing off and I thought, you know what, it's equally good. And I would be really hurting myself to try to reestablish what I had done. It just, it didn't make a difference in that case. Not that I don't make a difference, but that's not going to be missed. So I think there's, there's the fine line. I'm extremely detail oriented. And what I wanted to really talk about to the designers who listen in the public who listens is that that carries over to everything that I do. And the reason I got to you is because I decided that I really, I think all designers, all artists need their story told. You know, there's, you know, that sort of third third party endorsement and they can be the greatest person, but if nobody knows about them. And there's so many, there's so many artists who we do not know in every field. Yeah. Right. And, you know, somehow they might've learned don't toot your own horn. That's not true. You have to toot your own horn. It's part of being the artist and the creator. It's like, I have to say, this is what I do. I'm proud of it. And I want you to know about it. Yeah. So I made an effort. I think that's the conference we met. I was a PR person, you know, talking about how to reach out to PR people. And I decided I am going to do this thoroughly. And I'm going to plug recipe for press Amy Fleury, who's an amazing designer and everything has a book on how to do it. Okay. And I signed up for her 1500 names of editors, market editors, editors in chief of all the interior design magazines. Yes. And I went through 1500 of them one at a time. And I looked to see, I went to their website, I went to their Instagram address. And I thought, you know, if they're these beautiful young women holding babies, they're probably not going to be interested in what I'm doing. But if I see a lot of how, you know, a lot of rooms and things, that's, you know, that's going to be top of my list. And I called it down to 60 people that I wanted to approach. And then very one by one, I wrote, like I approached the editor of a major New York magazine. And I went online. I watched her videos. I got her book from the library went through her book. And then when I wrote to her, I you know, I complimented her and I was a fan, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't in any way phony. It's like, I, you know, I want her to know what I do. And I so I wrote to her and I didn't hear anything back. That was before I had gone to that conference. And I showed the woman at the conference who talked about PR and she said, Yeah, that's really good. You might want to put the prices in it. I wrote to her again, nothing. I got Amy's list and I had the wrong email address. Oh, that can so easily happen. So easily, you know, like the dot between the first and last name. So I on a Saturday morning, which is not when you're supposed to write, but she's a woman of my age. And I copied and pasted the thing again and sent her the new address 10 minutes later. These are fabulous. I would definitely yes. So it's now it's waiting for the right time when you know, there's an article about pillows or one where I you know, it's going to fit in, but I'm on her radar. And I've done that, you know, I did that with you. I did that with I have a 14 page spread coming out in a magazine called where women create. Oh, I very familiar with that. Congratulations. I can't your audience can't see this. But it's this issue. Look at this, Sandra. This is the front is peace. Oh, my gosh. Isn't that incredible? And then we're gonna we will I will put as many photos as Jane gives me. And I'll link to that particular issue of where women create. It's and I hired a branding team who I met through business of home, which is, you know, a home decor, you know, group. And I worked on this 1500 number list for weeks. And they said, there's nothing sexy about this. Right. That's work. It's hard research. And they said it's the you know, it's the it's the long game. And it's like, I'm in. I'm in. And I got attention to detail where you you know, it wasn't a what a form letter. It wasn't a fill in the blank, dear blank. You know, you actually did the research for the outlets you were interested in and made sure that they were aligned with not just your products, but I think your approach and your your desire to talk about it and to explain it. And that research, it takes a very long time. And I'm very familiar with it, because that's what I do with my guests that I'm going to have on the show. It's it's a lot. It's a lot of individually looking at each potential guest and going, what's what do they have to offer? What am I going to talk about? What can I pull out of them? And it just takes time. Yeah. Yeah. And there's no glory in that part of it. No, you know, a friend of mine said the marathon is the icing. It's all the training that you do up until then. The 26 miles, not such a big deal. You know, like this is pleasure. You know, it's you know, listening to other podcasts, you know, other your interviews, which I love and researching how you do it and reading your form. And it was very specific. It made it easy for me to pitch you. Good. And and also to wait, you know, because I think it was over the holidays, you know. And right. And I was like gone. I went to Italy. Yeah, I wasn't even around. It was not on my radar. But luckily, I went back to my inbox and went, oh, my gosh, this is such a good pitch. Well, that's you know, and that's the thing. And you know, when I was in my 20s, it was like it has to happen now because I need to be reinforced and now I don't need to be reinforced. I know my value and I hope that other people will see it. But you know, there's something about maturity that is so valuable. Yes, yes. And we don't as young people, we don't know it, which I guess is just what it's like to be young. But our culture, too, doesn't really value the wisdom and the life experience of of aging as much as I wish that it did. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Let's let's talk a little bit about you. You've mentioned Joseph Albers and Kandinsky and I think Clay is one another artist. But I know you get inspired not just from going to museums. What's inspiring you recently? Currently, where do you get it from? You know, I somebody said to me, why don't you take like a an adjacent I can't remember art adjacent class or something. So I went and I you know, I'm blessed to live in New York, which is so exciting. But there's a textile arts center in I want to say Bushwick, Brooklyn or something. And I took a felt felting class. Okay. It's like, oh, my God, that's how it's made. I had no idea. Yeah, right. You know, it's like, you know, you get broccoli in the store. It's like, how does it grow? I don't know. I've never seen it in the ground. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's like, oh, that's how it's made. Those are the fibers. That's why it's packed like that. And then, you know, the wheels start turning. A friend of mine and I went up. I wanted to see an art opening in Massachusetts Fall River. And she said, you know, I want to go to Sturbridge Village. Why don't we combine the two? So we did. And they in the spring and I put on my calendar, they have a sheep shearing day, then they die the wool and then they spin the wool, you know, card it and spin. It's like, I want to go I want to see that. And I you know, I realized I'm an artisan. There are people who are accountants and do other things. But this is how I inspire myself. And I'm one of them. I just went to the lace show at the Bard Graduate Center. Oh, interesting. I'm pretty sure I was a lace maker in a past life. The attention to detail was unbelievable. Right. Bobbin lace. Oh, my goodness. Oh, you lived I'm sure you lived in Burano and with a little islands off of mainland and Venice where all of the lace makers were. I'm sure that's your past. The mill milliflurry, whatever, you know, little mosaics. I'm sure I did those, you know, so I'm constantly you know, I go to I love theater. I love costumes and sets and all that. And just in New York, I mean, people are art in New York. Where was I the other day? It's like, oh, this feels so good. So alive, especially I live way uptown. But if you go below 14th Street, it's like, oh, these people are so creative. You know, everybody is a work of art in New York. It's very, very intriguing. So it's all around me. You always have to filter out what I let in. Right. I'm sure I'm sure. Well, I could talk to you for days. And there's more, you know, you're the kind of person I would sit down with over a cup of coffee and then we'd be off somewhere going, oh, look at this opening. Let's go. Let's go see it. Jane, I want to wrap up with my final question, which is why does style matter? And I love that question. And I I realize for most like I can tell you exactly for me, but I think subliminally, you know, you walk into an environment and you feel something that you don't even have to know why. I wanted to mention when I was living in Connecticut, there was Noel the day spa and she hired Clota, who was a Feng Shui expert and designer to redesign her salon. And when you walked in, it was just like, wow, what is going on here? It had been a factory and you just walked in and it felt warm and comfortable and nourishing and nurturing. And, you know, the the the attendance all wore, I think they all wore black, you know, it was just like the fact that something is so well styled, it goes down to all those details. And it's, you know, how I feel in an environment. The other example I wanted to talk about was when my son is turning 45 this week and when he was young, I met another woman who who's midwife. We both had the same midwife and we became fast friends. Oh, my gosh. Her husband, her husband worked at Popular Mechanics and she invited me for lunch one day and I walk into her teeny little cottage in Darien, Connecticut, and the dining room table, the seating was swings that were attached to the attached to the ceiling. And I was like, I want to I want to be here. I want to live here. Wow. You know, and that's like, I can't tell you why. But like, there was so much style in that. And it's the Noelle the day spa that invites you in on a cellular level. I feel it. And I can describe to you. Maybe I can't describe, but I know it. And I think it's so funny because the other night I was watching I was at a friend's we were watching something on her big screen TV and she didn't have the setting for cinema. It was like it was like what do you sit not date with the series that would be on every day. General Hospital was what are those called days of soap operas, soap operas, you know, that's so proper lighting. And so this movie was in soap opera lighting on her TV. It's like I can barely watch it. I can barely watch. I can't get the impact of the movie. I'm so sensitive. And a friend said to me, you know, it's like having gourmet taste buds. I have gourmet eye buds, you know, and the human buds. I, you know, I just feel everything so strongly. So style matters to me. You know, you know, even in the subway, it's like, whoa, you know, my senses are jarred by it. But when I walk into the lobby of the Metropolitan Museum, it's like, oh, I'm elevated. Yes. And I love that you said your experience at a cellular level. And that is it's an it's a great way to live. It really is. I feel so blessed. You know, I don't I don't have it orally. Like, you know, I can listen to an opera on a boombox, you know, but that doesn't matter. No, but oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. You put two colors together and it's like I could just hang, you know, Shane, you're so delightful. Thank you so much for your today. And I'm really, really happy to have had you on the show. My pleasure. Really delightful to be with you. Thanks so much for spending time with me today. If you've gotten something out of this episode, please be so kind as to leave a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you're listening from. It really does help this show stay on the air. And also, don't forget to grab our free guide, the Dream Home Action Plan at Little Yellow Couch dot com. And also, that's where you can find the show notes pages for all of these episodes with photos and links to things that we've been talking about. Have a great week. Bye for now.