Why Our Objects Matter With Jill Singer & Monica Khemsurov

I’m really excited to introduce you to a new book written by my guests, Jill Singer and Monica Khemsurov. It’s called "How To Live With Objects," and it’s a compilation of many things: their philosophy and approach to design; a primer that introduces us to history and context around specific objects and schools of design; and an inspirational coffee table book that showcases the homes of people who have really developed a very personal point of view, aesthetically. If you are passionate about interiors, you need this book in your library. Here’s my conversation with Jill Singer and Monica Khemsurov, authors of "How to Live With Objects."

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Transcript

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Hello and welcome to the Style Matters podcast. I'm Zandra, your host and I'm also the creator of the Slow Style approach to designing your dream home. On this show you'll hear lots of interviews with really talented people working in interiors. Most of them are designers, some are makers and artists and many of them are authors. Sometimes I also record a solo show where it's just me and I share pieces of my Slow Style design framework that puts you at the front and center of your home rather than products or trends and other people's idea of what beauty is supposed to look like. If that sounds good to you and you're itching to get started you can download our free worksheet called the Dream Home Action Plan. You can find it at littleyellowcouch.com. Before we get started I want to remind you that registration for my online course Master the Mix is only open through midnight tomorrow Tuesday June 6th. Master the Mix is an online course where together you and I will transform a room in your home using primarily what you already have over a four week period. Throughout it all you'll have me as your coach helping you refine your signature style. To learn all about it go to littleyellowcouch.com and click on online course up at the top. Again registration closes tomorrow Tuesday June 6th at midnight. Littleyellowcouch.com, click on online course at the top. I hope to see you there. And one other announcement, the podcast will be on break for the month of June but we do have a ton of previous episodes for you to dive into while you're waiting for us to come back in July. So do check out our full library of interviews wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, on with today's show. I'm really excited to introduce you to a new book written by my guests Jill Singer and Monica Kemsorov. It called How to Live with Objects and it's a compilation of many things. Their philosophy and approach to design, a primer that introduces us to history and context around specific objects and schools of design and an inspirational coffee table book that showcases homes of people who have really developed a very personal point of view aesthetically. If you are passionate about interiors you need this book in your library. Here's my conversation with Jill Singer and Monica Kemsorov, authors of How to Live with Objects. Jill Singer and Monica Kemsorov, welcome to the Style Matters podcast. Hi, thanks for having us. Thank you for being here. So I am very excited to talk about this book. I think it's almost like a seminal book. I mean, it has this compendium of information and advice and really a deep dive look in kind of picking apart the things that we live with in a way that most design books don't do and I know that was part of your plan. Your goal was to write a book that was different and so congratulations, you've done it. Thank you. I think that the book kind of whips you back and forth between this sort of nerdy, if you don't mind my saying, deep dive into what someone would say, not me, is an obscure passion for the provenance of objects and then you get whipped over to the other side sort of this every man sort of perspective about why the objects we live with are universally imbued with importance, often completely unrelated to their monetary value. So I feel like we've got a very sophisticated look at objects. Some are extremely valuable monetarily, but then there's also this other point that you keep driving home throughout the book about the true value in these objects comes from the people who own them. And I think that's such an important, I think that's a tough tightrope to walk sometimes, but I think it's a really important one to kind of say that objects encompass both of those things. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to know, you make a very clear case in the very beginning about why you wrote this particular book at this particular time and I'm wondering if you can share that with us. Yes. As we talk about in the book, it was interesting because Jill and I had been asked over the years by friends and followers like, why haven't you guys written a book? And it was not something we ever really thought about or wanted to do or committed to since the founding of Sight Unseen in 2009. We had a lot of content obviously because we were publishing stories on the website for all those years. And I think we always thought that if we did a book, it would just be like a compendium of past stories or something and that just kind of never felt exciting to us. Exciting, right. Yeah. I could see why you'd be like, okay, we'll just put together all of our old stuff. Yeah. And I was like, what a lot of magazines would do and it was not really on our mind because of that reason. But I think that the timing of this really had a lot to do with why we changed our mind and that's because at the beginning of the pandemic we're approached just like cold emailed basically by an agent who had noticed that people were at home looking around their apartments and redecorating, thinking about improving their domestic spaces. A lot of her publishers were actually working for interior books. And that was her kind of impetus to reach out to us because she thought, oh, here's a huge Imperiors design site that's never written with the books. Right. So the timing was basically a twofold. It was first of all the opportunity presented to us because of the pandemic and the lockdown and sort of what was going on and the general psyche of the American people, the American whole. And then also because like personally for us, we were kind of in the same spot sitting home during lockdown, like looking around our homes and thinking about how important domestic spaces are to your own well-being and comfort. And how for us, both in that moment and over the entire span of running sight unseen, we've always placed a huge importance on living with objects and the way that objects make a home more personal and the way that objects really bring you happiness and comfort and pleasure and joy to your everyday. And I think a lot of the homes that we had photographed and written about for sight unseen over the years, we always went into those spaces telling the homeowner, it's not as important like how your house is decorated and what we really want to see is your stuff. It's an ethos that has been with us since the beginning. It's just like a natural part of the way we feel about home interiors. And so everything kind of just like came together in that role. Yeah. I wonder if you could elaborate on that a little bit. You're very passionate about objects, obviously. You know, give us the goods. Like what gets you guys so excited about it? What is it about objects that you feel is so important? And like you said, that it's not even about the entire composition of a room. For you, it's the objects. Tell us why do you love them so much? Do you really want to take this? Yeah. I mean, well, for wine, you know, you have such a like visceral reaction to objects. And you know, it's, we really wanted to emphasize like what kind of emotion these things evoke and like what kinds of things create like a 360-year-old story around them. You know, we're really into the idea of like bringing things home from travel because like they're like these touch points in your home where like they remind you of stories about your own life. So that was a really important thing to me. And then also a long time ago, I started thinking about objects kind of in the same way that you think about fashion. And part of this was because people started showing each other their homes on Instagram is the same way to take an outfit out into the world. I really think that objects are like these signifiers in the same way that the clothes you wear are about like where you were at a place and time and how you felt and you know, just everything, everything's sort of about the moment in which you acquired it. And then it acquires these like greater, even greater layers, the more you live with it and the more you move it around your house and the more homes you take it to and the more people who come into your home that interact with it. And it's really easy to dismiss objects as just like, well, this is just this thing, just this thing, like it's just this thing I needed to fill the space. And so I got it. And I think there's something much more than that. People can be really dismissive and for me, these little like, these little like, touch keys or like things, you know, like they really feel important to my story, to like my story, to the way I like my own place to look for all those reasons. Yeah. I think that's what I meant about this sort of whipping back and forth between sort of, I don't know, not two schools of thought, because that's, that's makes it sound so intentional, but two, two approaches that are out there, which one is the very sort of refined, well-educated. I know when I see a Herman Miller chair, that it's a Herman Miller chair or a Sarian table or whatever. And I know the different schools of design and all that kind of thing. And then, and then there's the people that they don't know any of that. And they just hold on to, you know, a collection of snow globes from the 70s, because when they were a kid, their dad would go traveling and bring them back a snow globe from every city he went to, right? And what I think is so interesting about that is, is what you're, I think what you're trying to say is objects matter to us, whether we believe it or not, whether we even know it or not. And I think that's what's kind of refreshing about it. But there's this third category of objects that, that I struggle with, because I don't ever want to come across as being judgmental, but there's the object that people, like you said, they just buy something to fill a space. The object itself has no meaning for them, probably because the way in which they acquired it is, it was kind of generic. So what place in our lives do those objects have? And are you sort of trying to maybe say, let's stop buying those kinds of objects? Well, I mean, I think mostly I would say let's stop buying them. But I also understand that there are levels in a home, there are layers in a home, some things you buy for practicality and some things you buy for passion. So I think that, you know, we're never going to fault someone for being like, okay, you know, I want to base sofa that's really plain that I know I'm not going to get sick of and I can keep it for 20 years, you know, great. I think the ultimate goal for all of these things is longevity, you know, so not to single things in and out and, you know, kind of create more waste for the planet, but to buy things intentionally that you know you're going to keep for a while. So yes, you know, maybe you just need a lamp and you don't want the lamp to be very loud or crazy, you just want a very simple functional lamp and you need it like tomorrow, like, sure. There are moments in the house that are going to be like that and that's totally fine, you know, and then some things you might want to be like a little wild or a little crazier, a little more personality, like everyone has to find the right balance for them. Like how they layer those things into their home. And I think that there is definitely a time and a place for both in all of those cases, like even if you're buying something generic that you just are buying off a shopping list, like the best you can do is to buy something that you think will last a long time. And I like that you picked up on, I like that you mentioned sort of like how deeply we drill down into some of these things because I think that plays into it. I think like really understanding sort of the context in which these objects came into the world and the history behind some of them makes it a little bit easier to kind of like understand your own desires, to understand like where like the things that you're kind of gravitating towards spit in the scheme of things and maybe knowing like, okay, well, I know this isn't like this important piece of design, but that doesn't matter to me because it has this whole other realm of meaning to me. Right, right. When provenance and when these like, you know, big names or titans of design history come into play is generally speaking, I mean, not always, but generally speaking, the advantage of those is that you can trust the quality of them. And I think that's why people gravitate towards those things is because, okay, well, we know it's, you know, made by Herman Miller, we know it's made by this company, we know it's designed by this person, then we know that it's high quality, that it's going to last a long time. I think then that it's like a good value for my money because I can understand exactly where it came from and how it's made. I think with some of the objects that are, you know, a little bit more anonymous or a little, you know, don't have that pedigree, people might be a little more cautious to kind of figure out the equation of like how much money they're spending versus how long this thing will last. And we talk about that in the book kind of how to decipher those things and how to become a little bit more knowledgeable, even if the piece doesn't have a recognizable maker. Right. But that I think is a big part of that decision process for most people. Yeah. Well, we're going to get into that because I think you do have some really great advice for how to make those decisions. And all of it has to do with, I think, training your eye and also getting to know yourself really well. And you have some ways of people helping people get to know themselves in terms of their sort of design passion, you know, that they might have. But yeah, a couple of things. So, one, I believe in the book, you liken this a little bit to wine, you know, in college you're buying wine that's cheap and you don't know much about it. And then, and then slowly over time, maybe you get introduced to more expensive wines and then you start understanding the nuance. And if you want to kind of educate yourself on why certain wines have certain tastes and then your palate grows, just as your understanding of the design world grows. And I think it does allow you to appreciate things in a more deeper level simply because you're exposing yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I want to pick up on something that you were just ending with, which is this distinction between what makes a good object. You clarify what constitutes an object for the book. You sort of give us a definition, a working definition so that we're all on the same pages or reading the book. So there's a distinction between say remote control versus a vase, right? Or the difference between a piece of furniture, some of which is very, you know, kind of the foundational pieces of a home and then something that's purely decorative. And this book focuses more on the latter two, the vase, the purely decorative. And then you go on to define what makes a good object. And you know, as you've mentioned, and as I mentioned in the introduction, you guys have been around this stuff for a long time through your work creating sight unseen. So what makes a good object is not necessarily what someone might expect out of two very well versed design professionals. What do you say about that? Actually, there's a few moments in the book where we say, can you believe this design professional expert is saying this? Because I think people have these ideas in their head that are so ingrained about the way design is supposed to be or the way, you know, this like side pedestal for all these pieces. And then you have people in the book who like work at the top design galleries saying, oh, yeah, we just like mix like pieces of driftwood with this and this and then move it all around. And then like, it doesn't matter how expensive, you know, like, yeah, I think a lot of people feel the same way we do. And, you know, it's just not something that gets talked about. Right. Right. Exactly. But yeah, now I totally forgot the question. Oh, the question is what so how in the book you define what what you mean, good object, good object. Well, the first thing we say in the book is just that the good object is definitely not the price that you pay for it, which is, you know, among people who are not as fluent in this world, I think that's a that's a good misconception to like, you know, address. Exactly. That something is not good just because it's more expensive, particularly when it comes to the realm of like a vintage or found object. And you know, for us, what makes a good object quote unquote is just completely internalized into our brains and reach and express our opinion in like three seconds. But I think for most people, they might get a little bit nervous when they're shopping for design and feel like, oh, I'm not enough of an expert to like do this or know or know these things. Yes. And so what we say is just a like, first of all, do you love it? Like, do you feel something for it? Is there a connection that's beyond just like I need this for my living room? And then the second is that, you know, we have this little shorthand that we say, which is like, is the object well resolved? Yeah. And that can mean different things to different people. But for us, we define that as is the object both, you know, a good idea and like well executed. And does it feel like it's sort of in this place where there you wouldn't take things away from it and you wouldn't add things to it? That's the part I love the most of that, that definition is you're looking at something going, oh, I like everything about it except this one little thing. Right. And then you're like, oh, I wish they had not added that extra curl or whatever. Exactly. But they did. And you should never get that objects because you'll always notice that little thing that kind of bothered you. Exactly. And what I love that because it makes it so personal and it makes it truly in the eye of the beholder going, how does it make you feel? Do you love it? You know, and I think that special, I would say like, special, is it special? Is it special to me? You know? That's right. Right. Because the other issue is that there is so much out there now. You know, there's so much to choose from between, you know, all of the reproductions that are out there or the mass produce things that are out there sort of reproducing trends, but then there's also lots and lots of antiques fairs and, but then there's also online. So there's so much that I think people too go, well, I like it, but, but do I need it? Do I want it? You know, how do you make that distinction? And honestly, you don't make the correct decision all the time. You know, like there's been times where I have found what I thought was a well resolved object and it felt like it was special to me and it felt important to me to buy it at the time. And then it sat in my drawer. But yeah. And I never really looked at it again. Right. And that's okay too, because that's how you learn about yourself and what you love. Yeah. Okay. So that that is a good point that you brought up of the mass produced trends because I think that that's one of the things that often gets in the way in this process is the way that Instagram and TikTok have become these like echo chambers for trends. Yes. Where, you know, you might see something the first like five times and be like, oh, I love that. Like I want to get something like that. But then, you know, if you keep watching, it's like every, right? Right. And every designer is making like 12 variations on the same thing. And all of a sudden you're like, oh wait, it's actually like not special and so all over the place that in three months I'm going to be sick of it, you know. Right. But you do have to be wary of those moments of like, okay, you love this thing at first, but then you like suddenly and again, like this is not a foolproof process. Right. But that makes that makes it a lot harder, I would say. I agree. I agree. And also hard. I mean, it's hard on everyone. I mean, it's obviously hard on the planet, but it's it's it's hard on those of us just trying to keep up with the Joneses. And then it's hard even on the manufacturers because they've got to hit it like right. We got four weeks to hit this trend and then it's going to be gone because the trends are changing so quickly because of social media. So yeah. And we're like, even us like we are hyper aware of how quickly the trends change and that it scares me. Like every time I buy something, I always second guess myself because I'm like, am I liking this because it's trendy or do I like it because you know, like, it's hard to know sometimes. Yeah. It really is. And that's actually reassuring to hear you say that, you know, because like you said, you're sort of living it all the time. And the fact that that right, we can all get swept up in it very, very, very easily. I mean, but that's also why I love buying vintage so much because right. It's truly like a circular economy thing where it's like I buy it for not too much money. And then like, if I change my mind, I usually there's like a way to pass it on to someone else. You know, yes. And there's this big thing that's happening called buy nothing and then add the name of your town. Have you guys heard of this? Oh yeah. I am fully involved in my business. Yes. Yes. Well, so if for those of you who are listening who are not, you know, just look up the name of your town with the words buy nothing in front of it. And it's so fabulous because people are basically just giving things away. I think we're all getting tired of throwing things in a landfill or donating them to kind of big chain resale shops that you don't know is this really going to a human being or is this being shipped to a landfill somewhere. So it's a really great way to both get things that you want, but also really to get rid of things. I've given away so many things on buy nothing. It's amazing what people will take. Oh, wow. I know. I love it. It makes me so happy. It does. It makes me so happy as well. But let me give you a hypothetical here. Speaking on this idea of the circular economy. Say you're at a garage sale, you spot a set of juice glasses. They have these little divots in them. So they kind of feel good in your hands. You're like, oh, five bucks. Yes, please. I'll take these eight little glasses and you get home and you're happy with yourself like, oh, I just bought vintage. This is so great. And then you turn it over and you realize, oh, it was manufactured for Target. Is that good? Is that bad? Like, is this still a good thing or do we now devalue it because it was mass produced originally even though you're buying it at a garage sale? Well, first of all, always turn it over at the garage. That's so bad. Right. Rule number one. Number one. But no, this has happened to everyone. It actually posted a TikTok a couple of weeks ago about this very topic, which is funny because it was like, I was at a thrift store and I found these gigantic utensils, like three foot long spoon fork knife that were meant to be like mounted on the wall. And I thought they were so cool and I was like wheeling them around the store in my basket and I was like thinking like, okay, getting ready to buy them. The price tag was like a little bit high though. I think they were like $10 each or something. And then I noticed that one of them had a sticker with like a style number on it, which I thought was strange. So I was like, okay, I'm going to do a little bit of research. I pulled my phone and I, you know, I think I Googled like giant utensils with the style number. Right. And I found out that they were a for sale on like every, it was like way fair. Oh, yes. And I was like, buy them. I left them there. Right. This is also after I had been, we lent them through the store and people didn't like, ooh, those are so cool. Like in the store. Giving you lots of feedback about how. Yeah. So I thought I had. Yeah. Yeah. But then, you know, but then I didn't buy them. And then when it's funny because I still posted a video on TikTok and I was like telling the story, like how I found these and then, you know, realized they were from Wayshare to make the point to like, to the audience that, you know, if you're able, you could always do that research before you leave the store. Right. But then someone in the comments said, well, you liked them before, like, why didn't you like them after you find out they were Wayshare, you know? Right. And it made me think for a minute about this very issue. And I think that the answer would be for me personally, it would ruin it because I'm a vintage obsessed person. And I like the idea that I have something unique or like, it's not one of a kind, then like less of a kind. And that is important to me. And some people might think that's ridiculous, but personally, like that is what gives me like the thrift. Yeah. Right. But it is complicated because, you know, if we're saying people make too much stuff and companies like Wayshare, you know, it's all just goes into a landfill, it would be helpful if someone would buy them and not feel embarrassed. Right. And like, wait, I know what are we going to do with all this stuff? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Someone will buy them. It just won't be me. Somebody will buy them. Right. Right. But the target glasses I would probably keep, I mean, because they're so functional, you know what I mean? Yes, I wasn't purely decorative. That's true. Yeah. That's true. And sometimes it like, it comes around like I did the same thing with these IKEA vintage candles. Yeah. Like IKEA vintage candlesticks are cool now. Exactly. Yeah. Right. And on the other hand, we don't want to encourage hoard, like vintage, like, you know, vintage Kmart, vintage Woolworths. Right. I mean, Martha Stewart did a whole line with Kmart. I don't know how would you guys work? I mean, probably there's people in their twenties don't even know what Kmart is, you know, and so anyway, I'm sort of, that was a sort of a tongue and cheek kind of question, but at the same time, yeah, it's a complicated one. And I think speaks to, I guess it speaks to this whole notion that you keep talking about over and over again in the book, which is that how do you decide what you love? How is it relevant to you? And so much of it has to do with the story, the story behind the object and not sometimes it's about how the object was made. If it was made by a notable designer, sometimes it's about the fact that it was made around the same time as that notable designer and it was sort of sort of tagging along or writing the coattails of, and that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing. Right. It's just referencing a sort of a school of design. And then there are things that have no importance in terms of manufacturing. It's all about your own story that you imbue with it, which I think is spot on. And it also might just be about beauty. You know what I mean? Yes. Yes. If something like one of my favorite sort of anecdotes or not anecdotes, but references in the book is to a couple of collector, like famous, famous collectors from the past, including Albert C. Barnes, who has a whole museum. I love that museum. Oh my gosh. Everybody needs to go to the Barnes Museum in Philadelphia. Yeah. So fabulous. Okay. That's for another talk. Go ahead. So I'm going to go to the Barnes Foundation with like the yellow and the orange. Yeah. Yeah. We're on Zoom guys. So that's what I think. Those are thrift store paintings right there, folks. I was already thinking about them. Yes. Yes. Because they're amateur still lifes, which I love because they, you know, they're not always that great. I don't know. I love the bottle and it's so pretty. Yeah. Yeah. But anyways, the Barnes, yeah. So the story about Barnes and also Jim Eady. Is that his name? Oh my gosh. It's a little different. Anyway, so, so Albert Barnes, like his whole thing was that, you know, when you see this when you go to the Barnes Museum, the curation of the layout of the museum is like very important to like his legacy of how he thought about objects and how he collected and how he just leave them in his own home because his whole thing was like he just cared about beauty. He just cared the intrinsic value or like the what's the word be? I can't think of a word. He just cared about the beauty of the object. And so to him, exciting about his curation was how he could mix something like, you know, a famous Matisse painting or print and put that like right next to a piece of like iron work. Yeah. You know, like a very like functional, like, you know, no name. Right. You know, just like, or like, you know, a rock, whatever it may be, you know, like having a Native American basket, whatever, like mixing these things up so that to dissolve the distinction between, you know, like this master work that everyone knows and this beautiful piece of iron that like most people wouldn't even look at. But all of a sudden you put it on the wall next to the Matisse and you're like moved to look at it in a new way. And I think that that was like, that's like sort of encapsulating what we're talking about so much is that, you know, the just to think about beauty. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, iron can be beautiful. It absolutely can. And you also talk about in the book how putting those kinds of things together, it really inspires a conversation between the objects themselves. It that's why they work together is when you look at the two pieces and you go, OK, what do they have in common? Stylistically design wise, shape wise, that kind of thing. But also, how are they so different from one another? And then that becomes so interesting. And you do a beautiful job of talking about that throughout the book. Yeah. And I think that that's kind of the fun of owning objects is how you charate them in your space and how you form those connections and, you know, display things in a way that kind of bring those things to life in your mind. I think that's like really the fun part. It is the fun part for sure. And by the way, the word I was looking for was integrity. Integrity in the objects. Yay, we got it. Exactly. Exactly, yes. I was going to say, like part of the fun of that is it's especially like as like a creative person, I think that it teaches you something about lots of different things. Like if moving around the objects in my house teaches you about like maybe like what colors look right together or kind of like what textures are kind of like icky. Right. When you put the next to each other, because you'll think you have it right. You'll think you have your layout the way you want it to. And then something will happen or something will break or spill on something. You're like kind of forced to move it around. Right. And you're like and you move and you move all these other pieces in and you're like, wait a minute, this is actually so much better. And like I had no idea that these two things would go to, you know, I love that part of it. Right. And you and you start to see things like scale and why. And like, oh, this this whole wall now feels off. And I, you know, you might not have the word for it, but you feel it and you know it because you're actually physically moving things around and trying things out. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why we sort of that's part of why we really advocate for this approach to home interiors. Because I think that the classical vision of having a decorator in to put everything in the exact place and have everything coordinated. And then you never touch it again is sort of like, you know, the way people. May have thought about interior design. Yeah. For many years. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. If like that's if that's the way you want to live. But I feel like most people enjoy it more when there are these things that they can move around and shuffle around and not be too precious about, you know, because by a couch, maybe you're stuck with it for a while. But these objects, like you can really like maybe you can kind of like play with them a lot. I don't know. Right. Right. Absolutely. It's the difference between like sort of a time capsule approach where it's like you take sure this is the 1980s. This is, you know, Laura Ashley and then and then some, you know, and then a room that has this like Laura Ashley curtains because the person has the sentimental memory of having them in her bedroom. But then she's got pop art in there and she's got, you know, some modern and that room feels to me anyway. And I know this is subjective, but to me, that feels much more alive and interesting because of the mix rather than the sort of static. Everything is coordinated all at once at the same time kind of. Which you guys clearly, yeah, you guys obviously feel the same way. All right, I want to go back to that thing we mentioned about the book, the where I said you had some really great advice on developing your eye and kind of getting to know what what it is you love. So could you share a couple of those with me if you even know what I'm referring to? What's the biggest things we talk about is, well, OK, two things actually. Because one, you can train your eye just at your computer, which is I would say Monaco loves. OK, yeah, I'm like less of a I'm a less of a browser online, but it's fun to go to like the vintage sites. And, you know, once you've maybe found one thing that you like, you can use that to describe other things that like you might like. So you type sort of like those keywords that you've kind of that you're attracted to, like maybe it's like Art Deco glass bookends or something like that. Perfect. And you type and you type that in and see what comes back to you. And just kind of the idea of looking at what's out there and really like seeing it and filing away and kind of citing what you like and what you don't like and we even talk really nitty gritty in the book about saving them into a desktop folder or saving them into a pinboard or just so that you have like a constant document that you can be looking at to be like, OK, yeah, this is what I like. This is what I didn't like. Exactly. But then also just getting out into the world and going to gallery openings, even if it is, you know, obviously, a bunch of objects that are outside of your budget, just in the same way that you would go to an art gallery or go to the MoMA to look at art, you know, just seeing what is out there. I think is really important just to, yeah. And one of my big teachers has been the little tags that are on an antique store. So I'm not talking about fancy antique stores, little tags. And they they give you, you know, they say 1930s or whatever. And that little bit of information, when you do it often enough, you start to go, oh, that that looks like something from the 1930s. You know, it's amazing how you can kind of absorb this information. And like the art deco glass bookend example that you had, you do that search and you go into this in the book a little bit about, OK, you do that. And then you find a few things and then a couple of them actually have a name of a designer associated with it. Right. You know, and then you're like, oh, and before that, you didn't know there was even a particular designer to be found. And now you actually have a name. To me, that's all part of the thrill of the hunt. Is all that education. Yeah, I think. Go ahead, Monica. I was going to say, and the searching and searching and searching and the wormholes, yeah, you just turn up so much. Like you just you start to narrow and narrow and narrow in on the thing, either the people you love or the objects you love. And you set a search alert on eBay. You set a search alert on Craigslist. The stuff that comes in might be not what you were looking for, but then you go down that tangent, you know, and I think. That really helps connect you. Like zero you in on the movements and the. Objects that you might want to require. And then and now we have this beautiful book also to refer to. Yeah. And I want to start to wrap up here by going back to the very beginning, which is the table of contents. I'm really interested in how you organize the book. And I'm always interested in how authors organize books because. How you decide what. The chapters are going to be. And how you're going to present this huge amount of information. I think in and of itself teaches us something. So just very quickly, I'm just going to say that the bulk of the book. Is divided into. Four different kinds of objects that you categorize as vintage, contemporary, handmade and sentimental. That's not to dismiss, though, the very beginning of the book, which I found very, very informative. The introduction and the understanding objects chapter. We're really like, don't skip those guys. If you're buying this book, do not skip those. And then and then the very last part is about styling. So give us sort of the thought process that you guys had in terms of how you wanted to present this book to us. I'm appreciate it. I'm like trying to remember, honestly. I originally knew we wanted to talk about both vintage and contemporary objects and we wanted to dive really deep into both of those. And we were also. Kind of like thinking about the homes we wanted to have. Homes we wanted to photograph. Okay. And we are trying to kind of like break down the objects that we kind of expected to find in those homes. Some of them were people we knew and some of them were people that we didn't. And the handmade thing I think came about because that's such an important driver of contemporary design, but it was like we wanted to kind of spin it out. It refers to both contemporary and vintage, I would say. But we wanted to kind of spin it out because the contemporary design part talks so much about like collectible design and brands and just like all this stuff and the handmade thing is such a like important part of the story of the last 20 years or so in design. Right. We really wanted to spin that out. And then the sentimental thing definitely came last. We were thinking about like, okay, well, what about this category of objects that you receive from a partner or that you inherit from a family member? Like where do those fit in? Because those were really equally important and we thought in this story. So like kind of like once we had that down, we then like came up with like a little corresponding chapter to each one that we really loved. Just like with the handmade chapter, we talked to a bunch of designers about like things they had made for themselves. With the contemporary one, we talked about like items that you might have in your house that are like a little bit weird or wonky or like make you feel kind of uneasy because you're very loved exploring. Also ugly is something like I always say, like you got to have one ugly thing in every vignette. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ugly is a huge part of the Venn diagram. Yeah. So it all kind of just came together like that. But it was, yeah, like once we started dividing it into those four sections, like everything like made a lot of sense, I think. Yeah. And we could have done it, okay, a chapter on chairs, a chapter on lamps, a chapter on vases. I mean, that would have been a very different book. Yeah. Yeah. And this one, I think you say, it's called How to Live with Objects. And I guess that's what I really want to stress to people. Go look at the website of the show notes pages because you'll see in these photos, this is really about creating a space that is lived in with objects by real people and the very individual. I mean, you know, nothing is alike. And I found that to be very inspirational. Yeah. We definitely looked at those books that are like more like a taxonomy of objects. Right. And it didn't like not cross our minds to do it like that, but it just felt like this was a more holistic way of looking at the way people live. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, I can't say enough about it. It's hefty. It looks great on the coffee table because the photos are so gorgeous, but it's also, I mean, definitely a reference book. And I think that in the very beginning, like I said, those first two chapters to me were really about kind of giving us almost like a design history, sort of in, you know, culturally what was going on and economically and with manufacturing, what's been going on through, you know, for the past couple of hundred years. So that was really interesting. So there's a lot, there's a lot to this book. I highly recommend it, but I want to wrap up with my signature question, which is, and if you could each answer separately, that'd be great. Why does style matter? Why do I think it's about the connection between people? I think for me, like that's, and you know, that's always been what it's about for me, whether it's fashion or, you know, objects, actually objects, I think a little bit also a personal thing, but I think it's really important to how we connect with other people when we have them in our home, when we go out into the world wearing things, when we go our things on Instagram. Yeah. I think it's like about, you know, sort of displaying your personality in a way and also having that create connections with other people who appreciate your taste, who appreciate your personality, who want to learn more, who want to ask you questions about your stage. You know, I think that for me, it's a lot about that. And style, you know, like the whole idea of like tribes, I don't know. There's a great example, like when I went to college, when I was a freshman, I was really scared. And I was like, how am I going to make friends? So I took my book bag that I carried and I put like all these like patches and things, you know, I was like, yeah, I was bringing to Telegraph what I was into, so that people would like talk to me. And I was like, yes, oh my gosh, yes, that's a wonderful thing to say and to admit because we all do it. Yeah. And it really worked. It was like, I wanted to attract a certain type of person into like a certain type of shade. Yeah. And, you know, and that still holds today. It's like, I published something on Instagram and people are like, oh my God, I love that too. Like, I just love the feeling of like connecting with people over like this shared interest or this shared passion. And I think style is like the best one of the best ways to do that. I mean, that said, you know, this book is a lot about like how you, you know, exist in your own home and how you can relive these memories and you can relive these stories of your own life and you can feel these things about your object. So there is that element too. But yeah, but I think style for me is about connecting. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great feeling. Yeah. And then in addition to that, I think it literally is kind of about like, it's kind of like, it's kind of like a mental health thing for some people, you know, like maybe this, the Virgo rising in me, but like I really like it when everything is kind of just like in its place and like everything is kind of the exact thing that like I wanted or I envisioned for that thing. That's it. It like makes me feel kind of like still and like I can go on with my day. Yeah. Yeah. And this is like, that is a kind of a big piece of that for me, like both like a self care thing and like a self expression thing. Like this is like, you know, I'm expressing like my personality. I'm expressing the idea that I'm like confident in my style at the age I am, like those things all kind of like come together to make you just like feel literally like feel better as per. Right. Right. And there's a difference I have learned through trial and error between sitting in a room, in my own home and look kind of just sitting and breathing and just taking it in for a second and thinking, oh, that looks good. And oh my gosh, I love everything my eyes are lighting on. You know, there's like that, that deeper one is, is so gratifying. Yeah. Like they should nurture you. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Right. This has been such a great conversation and I'm thrilled to have you guys on. Thank you so much for your time and I look forward to staying in touch. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It was a great conversation. We appreciate it. Terrific. Okay. Thanks so much for listening. Don't forget that the registration for my online four week course ends tomorrow, June 6th at midnight. Master the mix is my signature coaching program where we'll transform a room in your home using primarily what you already own and applying my slow style philosophy. Go to littleyellowcouch.com and click on online course at the top. Also a reminder that the podcast will be on break during the month of June, but we'll be back with all new episodes in July. Have a great week. Bye for now.